Hebrew Voices #26 – Easter Miracle of the Holy Fire

Nehemia Gordon: Shalom. This is Nehemia Gordon with Hebrew Voices. I’m back in Jerusalem, once again speaking with Dr. Richard Carrier, who is over in California. We had Dr. Carrier on a few months ago, in an episode call The Truth About Christmas and Tammuz. Today Dr. Carrier is back. We are going to talk about ancient miracles and magic and how that plays out even today in the 21st century. Shalom Dr. Carrier.

Dr. Richard Carrier: Hello. It’s good to be here.

Nehemia Gordon: Let me just give a little background on you. Richard Carrier has a PhD in the history of philosophy from Columbia University, is a published philosopher and historian, specializing in contemporary philosophy of naturalism and in Greco-Roman philosophy science and religion and the origins of Christianity. He blogs regularly, lectures for community groups worldwide and teaches courses online. He is the author of many books including Sense and Goodness without God, On The Historicity of Jesus and Proving History. He has also written chapters and several anthologies and articles in academic journals. For more about Dr. Carrier and his work see RichardCarrier.info. Last time, when I introduced Dr. Carrier, I mentioned that he’s an atheist and I had people write to me afterwards and say, we’re not going to listen to this, the man’s an atheist, we don’t want to hear what he has to say. And I said, you know what, give it a try and tell me what you think. And most people who listened to the episode said, “wow, we got a different perspective, we don’t agree with a lot of what he says, but we learned a lot”. You’re an expert in ancient religion and that’s what we’ll mostly be talking about today Dr. Carrier. What made me want to do this episode is something that is referred to as the Easter Miracle of the Fire. I want to start with that. I’m here in Jerusalem and in Jerusalem we have what’s called The Church of the Holy Seplecture, which is for many Christians the most important place in the world. Its church was founded in the fourth century, they say by the mother of Constantine, the Emperor. She had a vision about the place where Jesus was crucified and went to that place and what they call the true cross, which means not like the cross in your church, but the one on which he was actually crucified. Ever since, there has been a church there. The Greek Orthodox Church has a lot of influence there. They’ve really been there the whole time or some form of them has been there the whole time. And they have this annual miracle that takes place in the church. They say going back over a thousand years. Maybe with some breaks when the Crusaders came. But basically, maybe even back to the time of Constantine, according to some sources I read. They call it the Holy Fire or the Easter Miracle of the Holy Fire and I want to start with that and then launch into some other discussions about other ancient miracles. Let me just read to you from holyfire.org. It says “The Holy Fire is the most renowned miracle in the world of Eastern Orthodoxy. It has taken place at the same time, in the same manner, in the same place every single year for centuries. No other miracle is known to occur so regularly and so steadily over time.” I got to say, just from that description I’m a little skeptical. Dr. Carrier, what are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Richard Carrier: They’re really pushing that. We haven’t described the miracle yet.

Nehemia Gordon: Let me briefly describe the miracle. So, the Greek Orthodox patriarch, which is the head of the Greek Orthodox Church in Israel, or in Jerusalem at least. He goes into the tomb of Jesus or the place the Greek Orthodox believe is the tomb of Jesus. If you’re Protestant, you put it somewhere else. He walks in with an unlit candle and it says on their website, holyfire.org, “The Israeli authorities come and seal the tomb with wax. Before they seal the door, they check for any hidden source of fire, which would make a fraud of the miracle.” It’s interesting, they’re starting out saying, we know you’re skeptical, so this has been verified by nonbelievers. By people who aren’t part of our church, who are maybe even hostile towards the church. They compare the Israeli authority to the Romans on their website. I disagree with that analogy. And then they have this description of the Orthodox patriarch, a man named Diador, but long story short, he walks in the with the candle unlit, it’s miraculously lit and he walks out and this candle is lit and he lights everybody else’s candle. He’s a scribe. He says “I enter the tomb and kneel in holy fear in front of that place where Christ laid after his death. Here I say certain prayers, that have been handed down to us through the centuries and having said that I wait. Sometimes I may wait a few minutes, but normally the miracle happens immediately after I have said the prayers. From the core of the very stone on which Jesus lay, an indefinable light pours forth. It usually has a blue tint, but the color may change and take many different hues. It cannot be described in human terms. The light rises out of the stone as mist may rise out of a lake. It almost looks as if the stone is covered by a moist cloud, but it is light. This light each year behaves differently. Sometimes it covers just the stone, while other times it gives light to the whole sepulchre.” By the way “sepulchre” is a fancy word for “grave” or “tomb”. Diador goes on “So that people who stand outside the tomb and look into it will see it filled with light. The light does not burn.” It’s interesting he give a whole description of how the light doesn’t burn and I think he’s trying to draw an analogy there to what the book of Exodus describes with the burning bush. It burned with fire, but it didn’t consume. He talks about how his beard doesn’t burn, even though there is this big flame around him. He goes on “The light is of a different consistency than normal fire that burns in an oil lamp. At a certain point the light rises and forms a column in which the fire is of a different nature, so that I am able to light my candles from it.” So now the Greek Orthodox patriarch lights his candles from this miraculous flame. He goes on “When I thus have received the flame on my candles, I go out and give the fire first to the Armenian Patriarch and then to the Coptic. Hereafter I give the flame to all people present in the Church.” Thousands of people every year witness this. Well, what they witness I guess, is him going into the tomb with an unlit candle and he comes out with the candle lit. They don’t witness what goes on inside the tomb. And they make a big deal on this website, holyfire.org and on other websites that there have been occasions in the past where the Catholics for Arminian Christians took over the church and they tried to perform the miracle and it failed. And their conclusion is very clear. They say it in no uncertain terms, the Greek Orthodox Church is the one true religion. Not just Christianity, but specifically the Greek Orthodox Church. That’s their conclusion from this annual miracle that takes place every year. (Dr. Carrie laughs) Look, I’m prime not to believe in it. I’m a Jew. I’m not Greek Orthodox, so I’m very skeptical going into this and there are a few possibilities. One is that that the Greek Orthodox Church is the one true religion. Number two is that this is sleight of hand or trickery, and that’s what I want to talk about today. I want to bring two other possibilities, though. I know many of my Christian listeners are saying this is a demonic force or some type of super natural magic. One Jewish response would be no, this is a genuine miracle in the spirit of Deuteronomy 13. It talks in Deuteronomy 13 that there will be a false prophet who has genuine power. That God grants him that power in order to say, you don’t want to believe what I have to say in the five books of Moses, the Torah, ok believe your delusions. They’ll be prophets who will rise up and perform miracles and they’ll be true miracles, but they’re a test. And I’m sure that you laugh at that, but ok, that’s because you’re coming from a different perspective. Those are four possibilities.

Dr. Richard Carrier: You’re right though, those are all things that you’d have to rule out, before you could get to the Greek Orthodox conclusion. They aren’t presenting any way to rule all of those things out.

Nehemia Gordon: I’m not so sure you have to rule them out. Meaning if you’re starting out already believing in the Greek Orthodox Church, this confirms what you already believe. Doesn’t it?

Dr. Richard Carrier: Unless it’s one of those other things, then you’re being fooled. You’re either being fooled by demons, or by God, or by the patriarch performing the ritual. I’ve done this sort of thing for about 15 years, reading up on research of sceptics who go and investigate miracles. And miracles include things like pseudo-science and psionic powers.

Nehemia Gordon: I don’t know what psionic powers are, so you have to explain that.

Dr. Richard Carrier: Psionic powers are things like being psychic, being able to levitate things. Uri Geller is a classic example.