Hebrew Voices #77 – Jewish-Christian Debates in the Middle Ages (Rebroadcast)
In this episode of Hebrew Voices, Jewish-Christian Debates in the Middle Ages, Nehemia Gordon speaks with Israeli professor Dr. Daniel Lasker, about the painful memory of forced conversions. They talk about the reason most Jews do not have a ready-answer … Continue reading →
In this episode of Hebrew Voices, Jewish-Christian Debates in the Middle Ages, Nehemia Gordon speaks with Israeli professor Dr. Daniel Lasker, about the painful memory of forced conversions. They talk about the reason most Jews do not have a ready-answer about why they do not believe in Jesus, why people argue things they don't really believe, and how a sarcastic sense of humor served as a defense mechanism in dealing with traumatic realities in Jewish history. This episode contains a world first: a Jewish professor attempts to explain to a Karaite Jew the nuances of the Trinity in Christian theology!
I look forward to reading your comments!
Transcript
Hebrew Voices #77 - Jewish-Christian Debates in the Middle Ages
You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.
Nehemia: You wrote this in one of your articles, and this is what inspired me to contact you. I’m going to read this quote. You said, “One can understand Judaism on its own terms without reference to Christianity, while Christianity can be understood only be understood in terms of Judaism.” I read that and I thought that was the key to understanding so much of my interaction with Christians.
Benjamin Netanyahu: Le ma’an Zion lo ekhesheh, u’l’ma’an Yerushalayim lo eshkot. (For Zion’s sake I will not be silent, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest. Isaiah 62:1)
Nehemia: Shalom, this is Nehemia Gordon with Hebrew Voices, and today, I am at the Marcus Family Campus of the Ben Gurion University of the Negev in Beer Sheva, Israel. Today we have on the program Professor Daniel J. Lasker, who is the Norbert Blechner Professor of Jewish Values in the Goldstein-Goren Department of Jewish Thought. He’s the author of six books and over 200 other publications in the fields of Jewish philosophy, the Jewish-Christian debate, and Karaism. In addition to Ben Gurion University, Professor Lasker has taught at the University of Toronto, Yale University, Princeton University, Ohio State University, University of Texas, University of Washington, and other institutions. Shalom, Professor Lasker.
Daniel: Shalom, Nehemia.
Nehemia: Now, you are, it says in your bio, an expert on Karaite Judaism, but today, we’re actually going to talk about the Jewish-Christian debate. I think we need to give some background, because I don’t know that my audience knows too much about these Jewish-Christian debates in the Middle Ages. Here’s what I know.
Around the year 150 AD or CE, there was a Christian named Justin Martyr who wrote a book called Dialogues with Trypho, which is a systematic attack on Judaism, a systematic defense of Christianity from his perspective, and deconstruction attack on Judaism. You’re saying there wasn’t anything like that in the first eight centuries, where a Jew sat down and said, “Let me write something to prove the Christians are wrong.” But they did tell stories about Jesus, which maybe were even a parody meant to be a little bit insulting, maybe?
Daniel: Yeah, I think that’s accurate. The Dialogue with Trypho, or Tryphon, of Justin, was not the first Christian polemical work, but it’s one of the first important ones. Then in the period of the Church Fathers until the 5th century or so, there are many works in the genre known as Adversus Judaeos, “against the Jews”. You have them in Greek, and you have them in Latin, you have in…
Nehemia: Wait, wait. So this was a type of book that people would write? A Christian would sit down and say, “Today I’m not going to write poetry. I’m going to write Adversus Judaeos against the Jews.” That was a type of writing. You’re saying the Jews didn’t have that category of writing against Christians.
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Hi,
I read the transcript of this post and was deeply engrossed. I am Ashkenazi Jew by heritage and was brought up in a very strict christian family. The Hebrew scriptures are what Jesus taught from and knew them word for word. The trinity doctrine was introduced to Christianity in the 3rd century so having Yehovah`s rightfull name in the new testamant would make the Romanised version of Christianity quite hard to pull off. Hence the removing of Yehovah from the scriptures is just one reason for this. Yes many wanted to distance Christianity from its Hebrew roots and so much bloodshed took place in the name of religion which if people paid more attention to the scriptures they would have understood that Yehovah hates these acts. In the New testament there are so many scriptures that prove that Jesus was the son of God but as with all things teachings are manipulated to suit doctrine. Yehovah says he is not partial but any man doing his will is acceptable to him. The bible is inspired of God from Genesis to Revelation so all are of value in my humble opinion. I am grateful to the tireless work that Nehemia and his team put in these posts and and so many of as are grateful and humbled because we benifit from your work and for me it further reinforces my conviction in my God Yehovah and his son jesus and the wonderful purpose ahead of us. Thank you so much to you all.
It would behoove every Christian that is learning the value of the Hebrew roots to take a retrospective view into the roots and consequences of most of their doctrines.
“The Disputation” (available on youtube) captures the deep influence of the Roman Church on many modern Christian doctrines.
John 14 “7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
And John 10 “Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
John 8 “Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham [q]was born, I am.”
yes, I am a Christian,, but I never found trinity in the Bible..Yehova or Jehovah is the One true God… though according to the Bible, you have had to have an accurate knowledge about God, and to the One whom he has sent, as Messiah, Jesus Christ.. Though many Christians today believes that Jesus is also the God… but there is a big difference with Jesus is the God, and Jesus is a god..they mostly do not understand John 1:1… Apostle Paul uses the Bible verse Psalms 8:5, but it has too many different translations, some translators have mistaken the use of “elohim” to God himself, some translators uses “angels” as how Apostle Paul used the Psalms 8:5,(hebrew 2:7) but take a look at Psalms 82:6, where Jesus used to defend himself,, when the Jews accused him of making himself the God… but Jesus, did not claim that he is the God, rather he is a god… because all the sons of the Most High are called gods.. you can check Job 2:1…Jesus is not part of the Trinity (whom Catholics claimed) because according to the Colossians 1:15, he is the firstborn over all creations, and the Revelations 3:14, referred to him as the beginning of the creations of God… so he is not equal to the Father.. because Jesus has a beginning..and God the Most High doesn’t have a beginning.
the problem is there are thousands of Christian Denominations that causes divisions and debates.. but the God is One God.. the One true God of Abraham..and of Isaac, (Yehovah or Jehovah) about Jesus, Apostle paul used Psalms 8:5,,, in this Bible verse there are also too many versions..but Apostle Paul, used “angels” in replace of elohim( gods) please, check the meaning of elohim in encyclopedia..but for me I chose the meaning of ‘elohim’ used in Psalms 8:5 is “godlike”, then look at Psalms 82:6, that Jesus use to defend himself when Jews went mad at him calling himself God…. In this arguments, Jesus is an Angel.. the Angels are Sons of God… So, Jesus is an angel, a mighty god..angels are god..they are called gods, because they are the sons of the Most High,,, but that doesnt mean that they are equal to the One True God whom is Jehovah.. you can look at Colossians 1:15, that Jesus is the firstborn over all creations of God.. in Revelations 3:14, he is referred as the beginning of creation of God… The first century Christians were so different from the emerging new Christian Denominations today. But don’t get astray… always refer to the Bible as your guide to find the truth..
I think the history of the three abrahamic faiths is a sad one. I recently did some research on the Christian Knights. No wonder so many atheist hate us. I live in St. Louis, Mo. The Catholic Capital of the US. I thought it was hysterical that Catholics accused evil Jews of desecrating their communion wafers! I have a sister that is a Catholic cannibal. I worked for the Catholic University one year and talked theology with priest and Jesuits many times. I’m glad to have gone out of my way to not allow myself to be brain washed by religious theology. I’ve spent my life searching for the truth. I don’t believe I have any Jewish roots in my family line. My ancestors were bred by the Norse Gods! Oden & those guys! We are all hybrids you know. Archeologists say the Denisovans were hybrids. It was in the news this last winter they’re going to DNA test all the old finds and see how many are hybrids. I’ll bet most of them! Thanks for your work. Having studied eschatology for over 40 years I’m rather anxious to get my hands on these Hebrew gospels, especially Matthew & Revelation. Some of the events are out of order in the Greek. I could show you some things you won’t hear from anywhere else. Thanks again for your work and sorry bout that Super Church, those dirt bags. The big cities are full of churches like that! I know of one that has a boxing ring Sincerely, Gregory Irby
It is undeniable that what is commonly called “Christianity ” is entirely unrelated to first century Nazarean Judaism as taught by R” Yeshua bar Yosef, the Netzater Rebbe.
Thank you so much Nehemiah. By no means do I speak for all or any Christians but myself.
My education emphasized that “God is one”. And as “Elohim”, He sits upon a throne and confers with His distinct voice (the Word), and His distinct omnipresence (the Holy Spirit) as self-companionship. As He is God, He needs no one else’s conference.
To others, a man can be distinctly a Father, a Son, a Brother, etc, yet that man is still “one”. With God, creation is the “others”. His Throne involves dominion over creation, His Word involves his power to create, as well as His Truth and His insertion of Himself into the Creation as Emmanuel. And His Omnipresence refers to his full control, power and involvement in creation. The number 3 (I’m told) represents completeness. And therefore God is complete, indicating singularity.
As the image of God, similarly, a man consists of three parts, as we are told to worship God with our whole heart, soul and mind. A single man, in three parts. So we can naturally extrapolate that man is a metonym of God.
So God’s throne represents His mind? His omnipresent Holy Spirit as His Spirit? His Word as His heart? Perhaps?
Thanks again Brother.
amen
Thank you for such a very informative ( also historically sad ) conversation.
Personally I am looking forward to the time when Israel is united under the Messiah (of which Jewish people and followers of Yeshua have in common)
When Yehovah’s kingdom is on earth then all nations will know the truth and the truth shall set us all free…
Beautifully spoken. No offense taken.
“They deserve each other.”
Listening to the Trinity gives me a migraine. There is no Trinity in the Bible and the Bible never says “God is Three”. Poor Jesus must be crying to hear people making him into a Pagan god. Jesus was a faithful Jew.
As the Hebrew Gospels are being translated, it will become more difficult to attach Pagan theology onto Jesus. This nightmare will soon be over.
Fascinating. I heard somebody float the idea that the name “Iberia” comes from the word “Ivrit”, but this seems little more than speculation to me. As for the people in Latin America claiming distant Jewish ancestry, my thoughts are that if Y’hovah wants these people to end up in Israel then by hook or by crook they’ll end up there, religious and government committees notwithstanding. What the Almighty wants He gets and it’s really not up to anybody else! LOL!
Nehemia, This is fascinating. Thank you. You find such interesting guests.
Do you plan anymore podcasts with Dr. Lasker?
I was struck by the idea that Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism as sisters divergent from their source. I would like to hear more (anything really} about the rise of Kaarism and also the earliest polemics with Jewish followers of Yeshua vs the apologists for the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes (Others?) prior to the destruction of the Temple and before any gentiles got added to the mix. Seems that by the time we get to the middle ages religion and philosophy, animosity and hurt have created a great divide when the original goal was to get to know the One True Creator, one people in love with HaShem, in the first place.
Ps, hope no one takes offense, but I’m really starting to think that Rabbanism, trinitarian christianity, and even islam richly deserve each other. I just wish they could keep their altercations private to avoid the very sad collateral damage. Blessed who comes in the name of yhwh. The Israelite commonwealth was a reform movement to return the nations to yhwh, as was the return from the babylonian exile, and later Yahshua’s ministry, then the karaite protests. How mankind can be so fickle and turn away so quickly defies explanation. Humble apologies on behalf of the ancient RCC for their bold fabrication of the single piece of “evidence” in the NT for the trinity.
The more I hear stuff like this, the more I think that some people really are driven crazy by religion, and the more I’m convinced that I did the right thing when I left Christianity. Jews (Israel) can trace their history all the way back to the beginning of time. Christianity (and all other religions) came up later, based on their pagan and false god beliefs. Christianity is just a blend of both Biblical truth, and pagan beliefs. It took me a long time of studying to get to this point, but I’m so glad I did.
Thanks Nehemiah for your teaching. Very helpful.
Great chat very informative !
thanks G_rd_n !
Fascinating! Thank you, Nehemia.
Makes my head spin dwelling on how far both communities have drifted from their foundational documents. While it is sad that the Israelite commonwealth, then the Jewish departed from the Mosaic imperatives into exiles and persecutions, it goes from sadness into irony that within mere decades Yahshua’s “disciples” followed a similar path of departure. I am really looking forward to a day when our Maker will cause us to see how both Moses and Yahshua shared a single purpose; to cause His people to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with their Elohim.
I am that I am, I am says Yehovah. As for you, listen to and do my instructions, and my laws, and my precepts, and my statutes so that you may live says Yehovah.
Yara shalam
Why do humans spend tremendous amounts of time attempting to define our Creator? It is ludicrous that these two are having a discussion about this trinity construct, since by doing so, perhaps they are giving it some form of validity. Instead, why don’t they, as Karaites, state the truth that man does not have the authority, nor the wisdom, nor the understanding, to be able to define our Creator so as to put him in a box so they can advance their own agenda. There are far more truthful endeavors we humans are to work to understand so that we can know what we are supposed to be doing to prepare ourselves for his comiing dominion. As long as we attempt to control who our Creator is supposed to be, we will have a lot of trouble controlling who we are supposed to be.
Yara shalam
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